Curse

D8tura · Mar 07, 2008, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

I give it a week before its either reverted or nerfed into total oblivion...or a combination of both.

i agree but i'm gonna love it till it is

The Way Out · Mar 07, 2008, 08:17 PM // 20:17

The nature of everyone is to find the easiest, fastest, safest way to do something.... (the work of truly innovative people)

These builds then get labeled as "cookie-cutter" because lazy people copy and paste them (hence, easier and faster way of getting an end result)

Then Anet says "Nerf" and community balks... (on average)

The innovative people continue to create builds, and the cycle continues...

Jetdoc · Mar 07, 2008, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

It's not that builds are "destroyed", it's that having to redo builds because of dumb side effects is annoying.

It's not that these broken skills that are created are necessarily game-ending changes, it's just that redoing the templates that used them isn't fun for PvE players because we're not readjusting tactics we're just trudging tediously through lists of skills to try and find a replacement.

In PvE, when the skills change, the monsters still use the same tactics so we're not really readjusting for any sort of challenge, and it's just a waste of time for us.

I wholeheartedly disagree. If you find enjoyment in PvE because you use the same build over, and over, and over again rather than knowing all of your skills inside and out...you might as well be playing Halo 2.

Personally, many PvE players (myself included) enjoy tweaking skillsets for each situation they face, to best match up with their enemy's strengths and weaknesses. This is no different...it definitely causes a change in tactics if you are unable to run that build that worked so effectively before...chances are, another build that uses a completely different set of tactics will work.

Most of the complaints I see are "wasted time". To me, if your time is so precious that you cannot sit and think about what you are going to do before you do it...you might want to re-evaluate why you play the game.

Aera Lure · Mar 07, 2008, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by quickmonty

I really enjoy reading these threads after a skill update. You can tell the difference between those that can think and those that get builds off forums and PvXWiki.

Maybe. Yes and no. I very rarely use PvXWiki. I'm quite happy and capable making my own builds, although I do admit at times going to PvXWiki to get some build for a hero of a profession I dont use often when someone is saying "GO! GO! GO!" in the party menu lol.

I've never seen Anet say specifically why all the nerfs and occasional buffs week after week for years now. Maybe I missed it in my rather spotty readings on the forums. It could be one of two things: Anet has been trying to achieve balance since day one and never yet has pulled it off, so they keep trying; Anet believes the best way to keep the game fresh is to continually change the skills.

If the former, well, then to my one of my original points, please, for GW2, do try to test the skills a little further before releasing them so we dont have 60% of the skill base unused and the rest constantly changing.

If the latter, well, I can see the merit and the intent. Certainly it would make the PvP crowd happy and some within the PvE crowd as well. Being mostly in the PvE crowd myself, I would rather the monsters be constantly changing - their AI, their skillsets, their mob positions and composition, their skills. It would then force us to be constantly changing our builds. Granted, constantly changing the skills can be said to accomplish the same thing, but I find that route an awful lot less interesting and far more arbitrary, especially when the former state of affairs is also taken into account.

Just my two cents. This round of skill changes for the most part look fine to me, but this is why I called it tedious. Would much prefer they approached balance and keeping the game fresh another way, although I am not sure its possible to do so for PvP, since its founded on the skills alone.

Ctb · Mar 07, 2008, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

To me, if your time is so precious that you cannot sit and think about what you are going to do before you do it...you might want to re-evaluate why you play the game.

I don't know about your time, but I most CERTAINLY value mine.

And, no, there's no tactic in "tweaking" PvE bars after a skills change. Skills changes force PvP players to react and behave differently - which is the desired effect, of course - which means that each player now has to adapt to a new type of enemy.

That doesn't happen in PvE (save those occasional times they buff MOBs with things like ints and enchant stripping). The monsters you're up against are still vulnerable to the exact same things now as they were before this "balance", you just have to find a new way to effect the same outcome.

That, to me, is a waste of my time.

Tamuril elansar · Mar 07, 2008, 10:01 PM // 22:01

pve doesnt need balance, ppl can just play with whammo's and win the game.
pvp needs balance, ppl that play whammo's their fail hard and won't win. ppl in pvp need use their minds and skill for most builds, whereas in pve you can just randomly use skills to win the game.

Made In Ascalon · Mar 07, 2008, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowsRequiem

Wtf........ completely rework a skill so it is nothing like its past use? Thats thinking outside the box huh? -.-

...yes, that IS thinking outside of the box. Are you daft?

Whether or not WoD is overpowered is up for the metagame to determine, but until then, the change is very creative and intuitive. This update is great, for the most part, a lot of skills were given innovative updates. I can't help but laugh at the QQers in this board with absolutely no damn clue what they're talking about.

sindex · Mar 07, 2008, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Oh, come on now this is getting to be so terrible. I know I get upset over some of these balance problems. However, we all should know by now it lays to the fault of the PvE’ers and PvP’ers equally. Usually it starts with the elitist PvE’ers comes up with some fantastic build that does wonders in PvE. Next comes the “other person,” who decides that particular build would work rather well in PvP, with a few touchups to it. Then the conservative elitist PvP’ers finds these new builds are kicking their butt’s (no pun intended), and have no method of countering them. So of course they call out “foul,” and A-net (just Izzy really) listens. Since some of these tournaments are E-sports and A-net pays money out of their own pocket, they want to take the PvP’ers a bit more seriously. This leads back to the balance you see today and the ones prior. However, it does not finally end since this cycle repeats repeatedly.

Nevertheless, some things can still be disputed as they are now. Of course this argument will never end, because you have a few people who play both PvE and PvP equally.

As for this balance, I think its okay (not the greatest).

Pandora's box · Mar 08, 2008, 12:22 AM // 00:22

To me it looks like the only people who support the seemingly pointless changes of 3 year old skills are those who enjoy to sit back and figure out skill combo's, rather than playing the game itself.

Don't get me wrong, I have no complains about most of the changes, in fact I enjoy the changes of eles and necros, but the question remains: Was this really necessary??

Ec]-[oMaN · Mar 08, 2008, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

To me it looks like the only people who support the seemingly pointless changes of 3 year old skills are those who enjoy to sit back and figure out skill combo's, rather than playing the game itself.

Don't get me wrong, I have no complains about most of the changes, in fact I enjoy the changes of eles and necros, but the question remains: Was this really necessary??

May I direct you to;
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/f...splay.php?f=30

There's about 1 month of readings worth there as to why things change.

Vl Vl D · Mar 08, 2008, 01:31 AM // 01:31

I think lighting hammer needs a buff.

Savio · Mar 08, 2008, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by sindex

Usually it starts with the elitist PvE’ers comes up with some fantastic build that does wonders in PvE. Next comes the “other person,” who decides that particular build would work rather well in PvP, with a few touchups to it.

Builds migrate from PvP to PvE, not the other way around (except when you're NPC farming).

jrk247 · Mar 08, 2008, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Wow I can't believe all the people whining about the update, this is probably one of the only skill updates where Anet didn't totally f**k up every skill. Sure your cookie cutter builds were weakened but there are many builds you can use and you can make better builds with some of the buffs.

Ele's where powerful and they got a few balances, necros were nerfed to hell a few months back and are starting to be buffed up some and most of the other skills in this update were buffed rather then nerfed, only skill I'm disappointed about is WY and that wasn't hit that bad, it could have been worse.

Creeping Carl · Mar 08, 2008, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

To me it looks like the only people who support the seemingly pointless changes of 3 year old skills are those who enjoy to sit back and figure out skill combo's, rather than playing the game itself.

I can use extreme arguments as well. The only people who whine about skill changes are those who don't really play with the game's potential of build creation and don't care about gameplay but rather just copy builds to farm with.

Taurucis · Mar 08, 2008, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Well, here's another update - I wonder what they nerfed now?

It was fairly small... and Watch Yourself is still lying shattered in pieces... any speculations?

The Meth · Mar 08, 2008, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Probably fixed the bug that broke DoA.

IllusiveMind · Mar 08, 2008, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vl Vl D

I think lighting hammer needs a buff.

Lightning Hammer is ok the way is it. Non projectile and thus cannot be dodged, slow recharge time; but, high energy cost make it more than balanced.

aapo · Mar 08, 2008, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

I wholeheartedly disagree. If you find enjoyment in PvE because you use the same build over, and over, and over again rather than knowing all of your skills inside and out...you might as well be playing Halo 2.

Personally, many PvE players (myself included) enjoy tweaking skillsets for each situation they face, to best match up with their enemy's strengths and weaknesses. This is no different...it definitely causes a change in tactics if you are unable to run that build that worked so effectively before...chances are, another build that uses a completely different set of tactics will work.

- Eh, really? It's not so much on the skills, but the nature of Guild Wars PvE that creates the feeling of being dumbed down. There have been times when I've been interested in creating water Elementalist only to realize that there's no point in snaring and debuffing melee monsters, since they all charge away at my team and henchmen generally don't kite away. Same thing with Mesmers: what's the point in skillfully interrupting Giant Stomps when there's usually 3-5 identical monsters using the same fricken skill? You'd do better to just slap Empathy on monster and watch it kill itself. Creating balanced chain of Assassin attacks only to find that enemies are usually dead before I'm even halfway done. This leads me to design builds like Way of The Master + Critical Eye + Aura of Holy Might + Critical Agility with scythe that rips everything to pieces in seconds without having to wait for recharge.

So much for PvE.

Bryant Again · Mar 08, 2008, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- Eh, really?

Yes, really. A lot of what had been said there had very little to do with what he had said, because there are still many situations for many players way they need to improve their game.

Giga_Gaia · Mar 08, 2008, 03:10 AM // 03:10

I wonder if anyone else has noticed that with the recent destruction of WY!, that the Luxons gain yet another advantage in Fort Aspenwood? As in Gunther STILL uses that piece of crap Izzy calls a skill? Way to go Anet, next time why not just let the turtles have over 9000 hp and do over 9000 damage with their turtle siege attacks?